Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

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Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own horse and my daughters horse to shows. Sometimes I may take friends horses with me without charging them. These shows are not for prize and this is not an economic activity (no money to win or money passed to me for transport).
My understanding is that this is ok, but if I want to charge them for transport, I need an operating licence (standard).
My question is, can I take a bit of money towards fuel costs without an o-licence, or is one still required?
And secondly, it doesn’t warrant me paying an external TM as I only do two trips a month, so what’s the cheapest way for me to learn the material so I can be my own TM?
Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm Have a read of this

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... EvKzotLwtc
thanks. Read that and I do have CPC, Type 1 transport auth, and Certificate in transporting horses. So if it’s all for leisure then I don’t need one, but it’s the profit statement that people say is a grey area.
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

Seeyeler wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm Have a read of this

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... EvKzotLwtc
thanks. Read that and I do have CPC, Type 1 transport auth, and Certificate in transporting horses. So if it’s all for leisure then I don’t need one, but it’s the profit statement that people say is a grey area.
pm me if you want to discuss it
Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 pm
Seeyeler wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:23 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:22 pm Have a read of this

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... EvKzotLwtc
thanks. Read that and I do have CPC, Type 1 transport auth, and Certificate in transporting horses. So if it’s all for leisure then I don’t need one, but it’s the profit statement that people say is a grey area.
pm me if you want to discuss it
Should say that I did apply for a Operators license, but got held back at the TM part as I’m not qualified, and I don’t have one that would help with 1 lorry for such limited use.
jandra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by jandra »

Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
The sponsor but makes complete sense now. I think it will be easier if I just don’t charge. I may look to take the course myself so I could apply at a later stage.
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
not
true. I think the wording is something like “more than minimal”. You can take fuel money if it only covers costs.
Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
not
true. I think the wording is something like “more than minimal”. You can take fuel money if it only covers costs.
This is what I was told, but then other people contradict it.
jandra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by jandra »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
not
true. I think the wording is something like “more than minimal”. You can take fuel money if it only covers costs.
we can agree to disagree. Taking a “friend” for nothing is fine. Getting fuel money is counted as a “reward” I remember it well a few years ago with my evening and racing buddies. The exact reason why sponsors were removed from the trucks.
What is enforced, if your ever stopped and what stays between friends is totally a different matter.
One could argue your “covering costs” but one could argue your just a bad with a calculator.
As always it’s when shit hits the fan it all comes to light, when your stopped on a smart motorway, all when some idiot ploughs in the back of you when your broken down. Etc etc.
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:27 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm Simple answer, no you cannot take ANY reward without having a o license. No fuel no burgers, no nothing.
The cheapest way is don’t take any reward, or don’t charge them.
Remember when you charge them you need a lot more and different insurance. Only you can answer if it’s worth it at the end.
It’s the same why a lot of sponsors got removed from horse boxes a few years ago.
not
true. I think the wording is something like “more than minimal”. You can take fuel money if it only covers costs.
we can agree to disagree. Taking a “friend” for nothing is fine. Getting fuel money is counted as a “reward” I remember it well a few years ago with my evening and racing buddies. The exact reason why sponsors were removed from the trucks.
What is enforced, if your ever stopped and what stays between friends is totally a different matter.
One could argue your “covering costs” but one could argue your just a bad with a calculator.
As always it’s when shit hits the fan it all comes to light, when your stopped on a smart motorway, all when some idiot ploughs in the back of you when your broken down. Etc etc.
http://hpa-polo.co.uk/download/A_guide_ ... HbyC81YW-Y
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jandra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by jandra »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:27 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:25 pm

not
true. I think the wording is something like “more than minimal”. You can take fuel money if it only covers costs.
we can agree to disagree. Taking a “friend” for nothing is fine. Getting fuel money is counted as a “reward” I remember it well a few years ago with my evening and racing buddies. The exact reason why sponsors were removed from the trucks.
What is enforced, if your ever stopped and what stays between friends is totally a different matter.
One could argue your “covering costs” but one could argue your just a bad with a calculator.
As always it’s when shit hits the fan it all comes to light, when your stopped on a smart motorway, all when some idiot ploughs in the back of you when your broken down. Etc etc.
http://hpa-polo.co.uk/download/A_guide_ ... HbyC81YW-Y
which angle you going for? A minute ago it was fuel money? ironically top left cancels your own statements.
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:27 pm

we can agree to disagree. Taking a “friend” for nothing is fine. Getting fuel money is counted as a “reward” I remember it well a few years ago with my evening and racing buddies. The exact reason why sponsors were removed from the trucks.
What is enforced, if your ever stopped and what stays between friends is totally a different matter.
One could argue your “covering costs” but one could argue your just a bad with a calculator.
As always it’s when shit hits the fan it all comes to light, when your stopped on a smart motorway, all when some idiot ploughs in the back of you when your broken down. Etc etc.
http://hpa-polo.co.uk/download/A_guide_ ... HbyC81YW-Y
which angle you going for? A minute ago it was fuel money? ironically top left cancels your own statements.
read the FULL document not just the odd paragraph which you are taking out of context
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jandra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by jandra »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:30 pm
jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:28 pm
which angle you going for? A minute ago it was fuel money? ironically top left cancels your own statements.
read the FULL document not just the odd paragraph which you are taking out of context
is that DVSA guidance? If it is not, I’d suggest a phone call to the Dvsa, then a swift phone call to back house-jones afterwards.
Exactly the same as any ir35 guidance, which is great until you end up in front of a judge.
jandra
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:41 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by jandra »

it’s like anything Peach27. One can choose to listen or follow any guidance they want. As said, a simple phone call to the DVSa would answer this, and just because your, or your friends interpretation of the rules differs from mine doesn’t make you wrong. please, carry on. Youv wet my tastebuds
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peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

jandra wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:32 pm it’s like anything Peach27. One can choose to listen or follow any guidance they want. As said, a simple phone call to the DVSa would answer this, and just because your, or your friends interpretation of the rules differs from mine doesn’t make you wrong. please, carry on. Youv wet my tastebuds
read everything there is in context. Two screenshots without a link mean diddly squat.
Go and read the two publications I have provided the links for.
collivew
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:53 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by collivew »

Any payment in cash or kind whatsoever makes it a commercial journey, regardless of making a profit, otherwise people could find loopholes. It’s a whole can of worms but also be aware that needing an o licence and needing to use your tacho are not the same thing. Should definitely be using tacho.
oatenly
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:54 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by oatenly »

PM please Seeyeler I can help you
Maalines
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:37 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Maalines »

I'd say remove this post. The answer is a very definite no. But we all know that illegal taxi. That guy that gives someone a lift to work. And he gets given a few quid for fuel. The cash in hand guy that does a bit of gardening or decorating on the side? All same thing. But on the roads. You're gonna get stopped by dvla, vosa, whatever they call themselves . And you'll be paying their wages because you not kept tacho records. You got a rosette with a horses name that doesn't belong to you. Etc. etc.
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

Maalines wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'd say remove this post. The answer is a very definite no. But we all know that illegal taxi. That guy that gives someone a lift to work. And he gets given a few quid for fuel. The cash in hand guy that does a bit of gardening or decorating on the side? All same thing. But on the roads. You're gonna get stopped by dvla, vosa, whatever they call themselves . And you'll be paying their wages because you not kept tacho records. You got a rosette with a horses name that doesn't belong to you. Etc. etc.
this question was nothing to do with using a tachograph
Maalines
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:37 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Maalines »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:38 pm
Maalines wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'd say remove this post. The answer is a very definite no. But we all know that illegal taxi. That guy that gives someone a lift to work. And he gets given a few quid for fuel. The cash in hand guy that does a bit of gardening or decorating on the side? All same thing. But on the roads. You're gonna get stopped by dvla, vosa, whatever they call themselves . And you'll be paying their wages because you not kept tacho records. You got a rosette with a horses name that doesn't belong to you. Etc. etc.
this question was nothing to do with using a tachograph
was using tacho. As an example. But that and maintenance records will be the first thing they'll check and they'll throw the book at him.
Best advice was to not go down that route atall for a couple of trips a month. Or just keep schtum about it all
peach27
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:49 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by peach27 »

Maalines wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:38 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:38 pm
Maalines wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:37 pm I'd say remove this post. The answer is a very definite no. But we all know that illegal taxi. That guy that gives someone a lift to work. And he gets given a few quid for fuel. The cash in hand guy that does a bit of gardening or decorating on the side? All same thing. But on the roads. You're gonna get stopped by dvla, vosa, whatever they call themselves . And you'll be paying their wages because you not kept tacho records. You got a rosette with a horses name that doesn't belong to you. Etc. etc.
this question was nothing to do with using a tachograph
was using tacho. As an example. But that and maintenance records will be the first thing they'll check and they'll throw the book at him.
Best advice was to not go down that route atall for a couple of trips a month. Or just keep schtum about it all
there’s nothing to make anyone think he isn’t using a tacho or keeping maintenance records or anything else. Lots of assumptions being made.
Seeyeler
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:18 pm

Re: Hi, looking for some help and advice. I have a horse lorry (18t) that I use to transport my own

Post by Seeyeler »

peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:39 pm
Maalines wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:38 pm
peach27 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:38 pm

this question was nothing to do with using a tachograph
was using tacho. As an example. But that and maintenance records will be the first thing they'll check and they'll throw the book at him.
Best advice was to not go down that route atall for a couple of trips a month. Or just keep schtum about it all
there’s nothing to make anyone think he isn’t using a tacho or keeping maintenance records or anything else. Lots of assumptions being made.
I’ve kept all tacho printouts, have a daily walk around log for each time I take it out, complete a log journey for all the horses to and from the destinations, and comply by everything that DVSA and DEFRA ask me for transporting horses. This is only for a hobby, there is no reward or prize gained. I simply wanted to know if I did need a o-licence for taking a bit of money for fuel - which turns out I can do without an O licence, as long as it’s not profit or for commercial use.
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