Tour bus full of truck drivers who are being transported to a job

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Le04apr21
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Tour bus full of truck drivers who are being transported to a job

Post by Le04apr21 »

May I have your opinions on the following hypothetical scenario please?
(I know what my answer is, but I'd be interested to hear the views of others and the reasoning behind them)
Tour bus full of truck drivers who are being transported to a job. Assuming the bus is double-manned how long (in hours) can that journey be before the bus needs to stop in order for daily rest regulations to be satisfied?
**Assuming none of the truck drivers is involved in driving the bus**
Thanks!

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User avatar
Le04apr21
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am

Re: Tour bus full of truck drivers who are being transported to a job

Post by Le04apr21 »

Im pretty sure double manning spread over is 21 hours , but can a Hgv driver drive a bus ?
Daily rest cannot be taken in a moving vehicle.

my thinking is that the truck drivers (who at this stage are passengers on the bus) are undertaking a positional journey to join their trucks. Assuming they have reduced daily rests available, their duty time can't be more than 15 hrs. The potential 21 hrs available to the team driving the bus is incidental.

I’d miss understood the question, i thought all the drivers on the bus were taking turns in driving ,,

sorry - I just read it back and realised I may not have made it clear! Now edited.

I don’t think it matters too much who is driving, I think it’s more to do with heading to a place of work under direction of the employer, not a fixed place of work. So the hgv drivers are able to use POA, so i would go with 15 hours (depending on having sufficient rest reductions available)

That's my thinking too. The bus could roll for 21 hrs with it's two drivers; but the "passengers" must end their duty (hence the bus must stop) within 15 hrs assuming that all parties have reduced daily rests available.

It’s an interesting point, though, as drivers are able to take daily rest (and split their rest) whilst travelling on a ferry/train with access to a bunk/couchette. So if the coach had proper sleeping facilities.....?

interesting point, but EU 561/2006 clearly states "ferry or train". Loosely speaking, they consider anything with wheels to be a vehicle.

I would agree. And having another read of GV262, they actually specify that the journey to at a separate location that is neither the driver’s home nor the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, must be counted towards their working time, unless the driver is in a ferry or train and has access to sleeping facilites.
Good debate

but you have to make sure that no passengers full asleep while on duty.

Brilliant question! Depends 🤔 ? From where they start? If the company employed say 15 Polish ( other countries are available) drivers IN Poland and arranged to bus them to Crick in the UK. Suppose the the bus left Poland on ther first day of work ( Monday) and their PAYE began. Would the bus have to stop after 15 hours to allow a daily rest for the passengers? I think not. But I don't know for sure. Again great question.

Got it! Fit the bus with 25 tachos, all passengers insert their cards, all double manning, therfore 21 hours! 😄

I'd thought of that too; but these truck drivers don't have bus licences...... 😉

- your scenario would constitute a "positional journey". Those drivers are under obligation to travel to Crick, hence they would need to abide by the Drivers' Hours regs. If, on the other hand those same drivers all chose to work for an operator whose trucks were based in Crick and made their own arrangements to get there, their working time does not begin until they get there......

"I'd thought of that too; but these truck drivers don't have bus licences...... 😉" And can you imagine all the manual entries!!!!

Surely they don't have to stop the bus! The question is about travelling to a place of work that's not your normal location. I've work for F1 teams, I've travelled from my home to their office ( counts as other work) from their office by bus to Heathrow ( also other work) flew to Vienna ( other work) bus to hotel ( other work) No reduced rest available. Was I supposed to get off the plane somewhere of Germany? 🤣!

- if their office is where the trucks are usually based, then your travel time from home to there doesn't count. The remainder of the journey however, does and should be planned to be achievable within your available daily duty time.....

Interesting! Is it where the " truck" is normally based or where I ( the driver) is normally based? Assuming my normal place of work is Portsmouth and I drive a truck based in Portsmouth, travelling from my own home to my work in Portsmouth does not constitute working time, however one day my boss asks me to travel the Southampton depot and drive a truck that's normally based in Southampton, even though both depots are the same distance from my home, would the none normal journey to Southampton now constitute other work?

You need a psv to driver the bus not hgv its 21 hours double manned....

But can those truck drivers be "on duty" (travelling on that bus) for more than 15 hours? Assuming they have a reduced daily rest available.

If it's a tour bus the chances are they have beds that the drivers can sleep in

They can, but since daily rest can't be taken in a moving vehicle, surely it has to stop before the truck drivers are out of available duty time?

Double manning duty time is over a 30 hour period, the drivers could both drive for 10 hours giving a total of 20 hours driving and 1 hour other work thus allowing 9 hours daily rest.
The passengers travelling to pick up a vehicle would need to record the journey as other work and take sufficient daily rest either 9 or 11 hours before driving the lorry. The journey would impact on when the HGV drivers require to take a weekly rest

hence; the bus would have to stop when those truck drivers travelling as passengers were out of duty time; not when the double-manned team driving the bus are out of time.

no the bus continues in line with what is permissible with the PSV drivers. The passengers (HGV licence holders) have no control over or priority over the coach drivers.
When the coach journey is over the HGV drivers will need to ensure that they have had sufficient daily/weekly rest before commencing driving the HGV ie when they reach the lorries the HGV drivers may have to take at least 9 hours rest as you cannot take your rest in a moving vehicle.
Whilst travelling as a passenger the HGV licence holders will be on duty which will have a bearing on their weekly rest

I should have given it the correct title of multi manning and not double manning are commonly known ad

561/2006 clearly states "Any time spent travelling to a location to take charge of a vehicle falling within the scope of this Regulation, or to return from that location, when the vehicle is neither at the driver’s home nor at the employer’s operational centre where the driver is normally based, shall not be counted as a rest or break unless the driver is on a ferry or train and has access to a sleeper cabin, bunk or couchette", so the drivers being transported on the bus would surely be in breach of daily rest requirements if they stay on that moving bus for more than 15 hours? (or 13 if they don't have a reduced daily rest available). In this case I believe the hours available to the team driving the bus are irrelevant.

The answer is 15hrs and 21hrs. 15hrs if the trucks drivers base is not to a fixed place of work such as a depot as this type of travel counts a duty time. 21hrs if it is to a fixed place of work as this is not counted as duty time, both these are based on EU/AETR rules.

- trucks they are meeting are not at the operating centre, hence 15 hours (assuming they all have reduced daily rests available)

Interestingly though; if they were being transported as a group (on transport arranged by the company at an allotted time) to that fixed place of work, would that not be counted as under obligation or instruction rather than "freely available to dispose of their time" and therefore not be eligible to be recorded as rest?

An operating centre is not the only fixed place of work for a driver, it could be any place, a motorway svs, remote yard, distribution centre etc. In regards to the comments concerning obligation or instruction this would generally only be the case if such an instruction were given during the working week, or to take drivers to/from a fixed base to another location at the start/finish of daily or weekly duties or to ensure the 4 consecutive weekly rtn base rule.

in the scenario I described, the drivers were starting their weekly duties by being transported a considerable distance to a location that is not where either the drivers or trucks are based.

Then 15hrs is the answer on the basis reduced rest is an option, which it would be as weekly rest has just taken place. Can i ask, why did you ask your original question?

However the real answer is less than 15hrs, as by the time the hgv drivers arrive at the (travel time to base not counted) base, sort out all their stuff, have a coffee etc etc all before getting on the coach this eats into the duty time.

I'm compiling sample case studies for future TM students, Gary.

Truck drivers could only drive with 8 passengers

- I did state that the truck drivers were not involved in driving the bus. They are passengers being transported by the tour bus in order to take charge of trucks that are in another location.

I realise that but I know nothing of coach driving rules so I just contributed.

Good dilemma that one. I would say the truck drivers can still only do a 15 hour shift and it’s a work journey so that would be the limit, depending on how soon they would be driving

That's my take on it too.

Are the truck drivers being paid and participating in wtd Very fine line if there on duty regardless of driving , but both drivers would have 21 hour spread over , hours will need to be compensated for after a 2 weekly period tho should this be regular

Truck drivers are on duty, travelling to meet the trucks they will drive. What compensation would be required? And do you mean for the bus drivers? Or the truck drivers being transported on the bus?

Well surely your asking ? If the lorry drivers may need a rest before driving well you are meant to record all hours travelled before on way to work that like saying truck drivers driving 50 cars to work in theory it meant to be in working daily time directive

Here, you appear to be missing some commas and full stops. Have some of mine . . . . . , , ,

at last you find a purpose in life

Thanks to all who responded. I think we can safely say that this one will be a suitable test for my students to see if they really have grasped the fundamentals of 561/2006!

If you need a Transport Manager (CPC Holder) or assistance with an Operator's Licence anywhere in the UK, contact Dmitry Nade at TransportForum.com 7 days a week on 07833 684449 (phone and WhatsApp) or email: [email protected]
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