Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

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GavMans
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:10 pm

Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

Ltd Company ETMs
How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules.
I've just had a very awkward phone call from Leeds and have got a lot of explaining to do, it seems.
JefJello
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:29 am

Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by JefJello »

Well its quite legal, I'm an external TM for a friend and drive full time, I sent them a plan how I'd work my hours to suit and it was fine
JefJello
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by JefJello »

I run my own freight forwarding company and use that for invoice
robBloom
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by robBloom »

I run my own freight forwarding company and use that for invoice
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

robBloom wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:44 pm I run my own freight forwarding company and use that for invoice
I'm a TM in my own name. Named on the O Licence.
I invoice from a Ltd Co.
Why is this foul of the rules?
robBloom
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by robBloom »

GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:45 pm
robBloom wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:44 pm I run my own freight forwarding company and use that for invoice
I'm a TM in my own name. Named on the O Licence.
I invoice from a Ltd Co.
Why is this foul of the rules?
I would suggest that is not “ foul of the rules” but then that is my opinion, others may differ, also bear in mind that Leeds have people working in there who pick up on something, don’t research it, and go off “half cocked” and end up with egg on their face!
EdReports
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:34 am

Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by EdReports »

The contract has to be in the individuals name and the limited company can invoice as long as the invoice clearly states work carried out personally by the named individual
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

EdReports wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:46 pm The contract has to be in the individuals name and the limited company can invoice as long as the invoice clearly states work carried out personally by the named individual
my invoice does (see the other post).
Maybe I'll send a copy of the invoice and see what comes back.
danthrect70
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by danthrect70 »

Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
Lenextoner
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:39 am

Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by Lenextoner »

danthrect70 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:47 pm Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
But we’re not talking about Ltd drivers, we’re talking about Ltd TM’s.
However the argument is the same. This has been covered so many times on so many different forums that I can’t believe that there are still people who believe it is still possible.
Yes you can invoice for additional services as a Ltd. Co. but not for your basic duties as a TM.
amesswu21
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by amesswu21 »

Lenextoner wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:48 pm
danthrect70 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:47 pm Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
But we’re not talking about Ltd drivers, we’re talking about Ltd TM’s.
However the argument is the same. This has been covered so many times on so many different forums that I can’t believe that there are still people who believe it is still possible.
Yes you can invoice for additional services as a Ltd. Co. but not for your basic duties as a TM.
covered or answered?
EldElegy
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by EldElegy »

danthrect70 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:47 pm Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
i think the op is on about an external tm operating under a limited company.
A practice I have never seen issue with. So long as the listed TM is actually the TM.
I have known situations where one person names themselves but sends in delegate to do the job.
Lenextoner
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by Lenextoner »

EldElegy wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:49 pm
danthrect70 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:47 pm Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
i think the op is on about an external tm operating under a limited company.
A practice I have never seen issue with. So long as the listed TM is actually the TM.
I have known situations where one person names themselves but sends in delegate to do the job.
different scenario, but if the delegated person screws up it’s still the nominated TM whose backside gets kicked.
EldElegy
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by EldElegy »

Lenextoner wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:50 pm
EldElegy wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:49 pm
danthrect70 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:47 pm Personally I'm not, nor would I even consider a situation with LTD drivers, look at Statutory Document No. 5, under the heading "Employees".
i think the op is on about an external tm operating under a limited company.
A practice I have never seen issue with. So long as the listed TM is actually the TM.
I have known situations where one person names themselves but sends in delegate to do the job.
different scenario, but if the delegated person screws up it’s still the nominated TM whose backside gets kicked.
absolutely. My point was not very clear.
I was implying the act if having the ltd co be made being acceptable on the grounds that the listed tm is actually doing the work.
I then meant as a separate point, that I thought the OP was referring to cases where the agreement is with the ltd co, and the reality is one persona name gets thrown on the o licence. When in fact they do not do the work themselves and end up delegating the entire responsibility. A practice which is, in almost all instances, unacceptable.
Lenextoner
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by Lenextoner »

EldElegy wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:50 pm
Lenextoner wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:50 pm
EldElegy wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:49 pm

i think the op is on about an external tm operating under a limited company.
A practice I have never seen issue with. So long as the listed TM is actually the TM.
I have known situations where one person names themselves but sends in delegate to do the job.
different scenario, but if the delegated person screws up it’s still the nominated TM whose backside gets kicked.
absolutely. My point was not very clear.
I was implying the act if having the ltd co be made being acceptable on the grounds that the listed tm is actually doing the work.
I then meant as a separate point, that I thought the OP was referring to cases where the agreement is with the ltd co, and the reality is one persona name gets thrown on the o licence. When in fact they do not do the work themselves and end up delegating the entire responsibility. A practice which is, in almost all instances, unacceptable.
looking at your expansion of your previous comments.
It has been stated often enough now that an external transport manager has to be an actual person, not a limited company and that actual person has to be the person invoicing and cannot invoice through a limited company even if that individual is registered as a company with companies house. That is why the person posting the original question is facing probing questions from Leeds.
On your second point; no someone can’t put themselves on the licence and send in someone to do the work and not have any input themselves.
However it is possible in a situation where a transport manager is starting to max out on the number of trucks he is looking after that the transport manager may delegate some of the work to other(s), not necessarily a CPC holder but the nominated transport manager ultimately holds responsibility.
However I assume you are thinking of where a transport manager is operating ‘in name only’
stoMedium
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by stoMedium »

I think there’s confusion between the person named on an O licence (must be an individual), and how an ETM can structure their business (fine to be a limited co.)
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

stoMedium wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:51 pm I think there’s confusion between the person named on an O licence (must be an individual), and how an ETM can structure their business (fine to be a limited co.)
that's what I need to convince the case worker.
PaulCPC
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by PaulCPC »

I was under the impression that the TC prefer sole trader status for an external Transport Manager.
FoxFaith
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by FoxFaith »

GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:52 pm
stoMedium wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:51 pm I think there’s confusion between the person named on an O licence (must be an individual), and how an ETM can structure their business (fine to be a limited co.)
that's what I need to convince the case worker.
if you need to convince the case worker, maybe that’s your answer 🤷‍♂️
FoxFaith
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by FoxFaith »

stoMedium wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:51 pm I think there’s confusion between the person named on an O licence (must be an individual), and how an ETM can structure their business (fine to be a limited co.)
an individual and a Ltd company are two separate, and independent legal entities.
Not sure how John Smith can ask John Smith Ltd to collect payments for work the Ltd company hasn’t done.
morrapp10
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by morrapp10 »

I’ve just had first hand personal experience with this topic. As some of you say the ETM must be an individual on his contract but more importantly he has to be a sole trader and receive his fee as a sole trader into an account in his name. This ensures a GENUINE LINK exists between the ETM and The Operator. What a pain it has been to change everything over but I had to do it was quite specific about this point.
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

morrapp10 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:53 pm I’ve just had first hand personal experience with this topic. As some of you say the ETM must be an individual on his contract but more importantly he has to be a sole trader and receive his fee as a sole trader into an account in his name. This ensures a GENUINE LINK exists between the ETM and The Operator. What a pain it has been to change everything over but I had to do it was quite specific about this point.
Did the TC allow you to change without an enquiry?
My contract is in my name, I'm named on the O Licences. It was only my invoice that came from my Ltd. The invoice specifically named me as the service provider supplied as well.
morrapp10
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by morrapp10 »

GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:54 pm
morrapp10 wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:53 pm I’ve just had first hand personal experience with this topic. As some of you say the ETM must be an individual on his contract but more importantly he has to be a sole trader and receive his fee as a sole trader into an account in his name. This ensures a GENUINE LINK exists between the ETM and The Operator. What a pain it has been to change everything over but I had to do it was quite specific about this point.
Did the TC allow you to change without an enquiry?
My contract is in my name, I'm named on the O Licences. It was only my invoice that came from my Ltd. The invoice specifically named me as the service provider supplied as well.
no I had to go to pi they do love an audit. The full works for ten mins with Mr Denton
All good I’m pleased to say
GeeShun
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GeeShun »

It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
I didn't. The OTC did a search on my name as part of a new application. They found it and phoned me yesterday afternoon. I now have to explain myself, with evidence, by email, this morning.
If I have to change (which evidently I will) I'll do it.
I'm at the stage now of trying to limit the damage by wording an email very nicely, without dropping myself right in it.
GeeShun
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GeeShun »

GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
I didn't. The OTC did a search on my name as part of a new application. They found it and phoned me yesterday afternoon. I now have to explain myself, with evidence, by email, this morning.
If I have to change (which evidently I will) I'll do it.
I'm at the stage now of trying to limit the damage by wording an email very nicely, without dropping myself right in it.
so they found you on companies house I take it?
No wonder this industry has so many problems…
GavMans
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GavMans »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:56 pm
GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
I didn't. The OTC did a search on my name as part of a new application. They found it and phoned me yesterday afternoon. I now have to explain myself, with evidence, by email, this morning.
If I have to change (which evidently I will) I'll do it.
I'm at the stage now of trying to limit the damage by wording an email very nicely, without dropping myself right in it.
so they found you on companies house I take it?
No wonder this industry has so many problems…
that's exactly how they found me.
GeeShun
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GeeShun »

GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:56 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:56 pm
GavMans wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm

I didn't. The OTC did a search on my name as part of a new application. They found it and phoned me yesterday afternoon. I now have to explain myself, with evidence, by email, this morning.
If I have to change (which evidently I will) I'll do it.
I'm at the stage now of trying to limit the damage by wording an email very nicely, without dropping myself right in it.
so they found you on companies house I take it?
No wonder this industry has so many problems…
that's exactly how they found me.
unbelievable. All you can do is say that it’s a billing vehicle and if they’d prefer you to bill personally you are willing to do that. Don’t try and be too clever about it
FoxFaith
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by FoxFaith »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
how is billing out as a Ltd company irrelevant? The Ltd company has no contract with the operator so has no claim against them.
GeeShun
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GeeShun »

FoxFaith wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:57 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
how is billing out as a Ltd company irrelevant? The Ltd company has no contract with the operator so has no claim against them.
for us pragmatic types it’s not an issue, because we do the job properly in the first place.
In the eyes of the OTC and all the karens in the industry it has become one.
Hence why I now avoid it
FoxFaith
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by FoxFaith »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm
FoxFaith wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:57 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
how is billing out as a Ltd company irrelevant? The Ltd company has no contract with the operator so has no claim against them.
for us pragmatic types it’s not an issue, because we do the job properly in the first place.
In the eyes of the OTC and all the karens in the industry it has become one.
Hence why I now avoid it
By doing the job “properly” you mean according to you and not the governing body
GeeShun
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by GeeShun »

FoxFaith wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm
FoxFaith wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:57 pm

how is billing out as a Ltd company irrelevant? The Ltd company has no contract with the operator so has no claim against them.
for us pragmatic types it’s not an issue, because we do the job properly in the first place.
In the eyes of the OTC and all the karens in the industry it has become one.
Hence why I now avoid it
By doing the job “properly” you mean according to you and not the governing body
no I didn’t say that. Just making the point that the way you bill your client doesn’t necessarily dictate whether you’re a good ETM or not
I think if all ETMs carried out their duties as they should then this whole LTD argument and focus wouldn’t be an issue. Guess it’s one way to wroot out the bad ones.
FoxFaith
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by FoxFaith »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:59 pm
FoxFaith wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm
GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:58 pm

for us pragmatic types it’s not an issue, because we do the job properly in the first place.
In the eyes of the OTC and all the karens in the industry it has become one.
Hence why I now avoid it
By doing the job “properly” you mean according to you and not the governing body
no I didn’t say that. Just making the point that the way you bill your client doesn’t necessarily dictate whether you’re a good ETM or not
I think if all ETMs carried out their duties as they should then this whole LTD argument and focus wouldn’t be an issue. Guess it’s one way to wroot out the bad ones.
I probably agree with you there.
I won’t put my name to a licence now due to the overbearing demands put on TMs that aren’t reasonable or relevant.
But for those that choose to, they can’t pick and choose.
nikOnline
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by nikOnline »

Im simple words contract should be between ETM and operator where operator pays ETM directly in ETM's named bank account. There should be no involvement of any ltd company from ETM's side.
Any further queries just PM me. Thanks
WhitRip
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by WhitRip »

You’re in trouble then. You can’t invoice as a Ltd Co.
morrapp10
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by morrapp10 »

The other genius idea I had was to form a trade name within my ltd company for example David
I’m being paid in person albeit within my ltd company but was advised by a transport solicitor if I’d given an undertaking to Mr Denton I’d never work again if I were to be called again and my deception was uncovered. I quite like my idea though
Bluecorn
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Re: Ltd Company ETMs How are you guys convincing the TC it's legit and within the rules. I've just had a very awkward

Post by Bluecorn »

GeeShun wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2023 3:55 pm It’s quite simple. You don’t mention your Ltd company on the license or any other correspondence.
Ultimately it’s you who is personally liable. The fact you bill out of a LTD is irrelevant
Brilliant idea fir so many reason, there are a few snags to it though, such a late payments, breaches of contracts, insurances etc etc etc
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