Hi evening all, For those who still employ Ltd drivers, be aware!

[krislou]

Hi evening all, For those who still employ Ltd drivers, be aware!
https://www.commercialmotor.com/news/ar ... rrangement

[Johnsiate]

Plenty still do it up my way

[daveyer]

Should be a level playing field for all.... this really annoys me and I'm glad they are starting to take note

[ANDNNEE]

Should be a level playing field for all.... this really annoys me and I'm glad they are starting to take note

so why can you have external TM for however long you want? Why does this not annpy you? Does the TM not need to obey the same rules? Does he not need pension and sick pay and etc? How is he different than drivers?

[daveyer]

Should be a level playing field for all.... this really annoys me and I'm glad they are starting to take note

so why can you have external TM for however long you want? Why does this not annpy you? Does the TM not need to obey the same rules? Does he not need pension and sick pay and etc? How is he different than drivers?

I wouldn't know. I have an internal employed TM so not sure your comment is applicable to me? My internal TM is paid through paye?

[ANDNNEE]

Should be a level playing field for all.... this really annoys me and I'm glad they are starting to take note

so why can you have external TM for however long you want? Why does this not annpy you? Does the TM not need to obey the same rules? Does he not need pension and sick pay and etc? How is he different than drivers?

I wouldn't know. I have an internal employed TM so not sure your comment is applicable to me? My internal TM is paid through paye?

that's your case. There are load loads external TM. You should have a problem with that too.

[daveyer]

so why can you have external TM for however long you want? Why does this not annpy you? Does the TM not need to obey the same rules? Does he not need pension and sick pay and etc? How is he different than drivers?

I wouldn't know. I have an internal employed TM so not sure your comment is applicable to me? My internal TM is paid through paye?

that's your case. There are load loads external TM. You should have a problem with that too.

get off you high horse and abide by rhe rules that most of us have to. It's not a level playing field for those of us who do.

[ANDNNEE]

I wouldn't know. I have an internal employed TM so not sure your comment is applicable to me? My internal TM is paid through paye?

that's your case. There are load loads external TM. You should have a problem with that too.

get off you high horse and abide by rhe rules that most of us have to. It's not a level playing field for those of us who do.

you have no arguments hence you keep on the same page. Have a good day up there on your cloud.

[daveyer]

that's your case. There are load loads external TM. You should have a problem with that too.

get off you high horse and abide by rhe rules that most of us have to. It's not a level playing field for those of us who do.

you have no arguments hence you keep on the same page. Have a good day up there on your cloud.

people like you are the problem sadly. I do the job properly. Judge me when you know me!!!

[ANDNNEE]

get off you high horse and abide by rhe rules that most of us have to. It's not a level playing field for those of us who do.

you have no arguments hence you keep on the same page. Have a good day up there on your cloud.

people like you are the problem sadly. I do the job properly. Judge me when you know me!!!

You have no arguments, no idea what you're talking about. You're a sheep, if you are told to sit on your head, you do it. Run it through your brain and come back when you have some arguments. You're clueless. Goodbye!

[daveyer]

you have no arguments hence you keep on the same page. Have a good day up there on your cloud.

people like you are the problem sadly. I do the job properly. Judge me when you know me!!!

You have no arguments, no idea what you're talking about. You're a sheep, if you are told to sit on your head, you do it. Run it through your brain and come back when you have some arguments. You're clueless. Goodbye!

you're a delight aren't you! Come back when you know me and what I do and how I do it. Insult throwing just makes you look stupid!

[ANDNNEE]

people like you are the problem sadly. I do the job properly. Judge me when you know me!!!

You have no arguments, no idea what you're talking about. You're a sheep, if you are told to sit on your head, you do it. Run it through your brain and come back when you have some arguments. You're clueless. Goodbye!

you're a delight aren't you! Come back when you know me and what I do and how I do it. Insult throwing just makes you look stupid!

Why? Do you know me or what i do to say that i am the "sadly" the problem?
Anyway, so do you have any arguments or you just enjoy looking stupid with no opinions of your own?

[daveyer]

You have no arguments, no idea what you're talking about. You're a sheep, if you are told to sit on your head, you do it. Run it through your brain and come back when you have some arguments. You're clueless. Goodbye!

you're a delight aren't you! Come back when you know me and what I do and how I do it. Insult throwing just makes you look stupid!

Why? Do you know me or what i do to say that i am the "sadly" the problem?
Anyway, so do you have any arguments or you just enjoy looking stupid with no opinions of your own?

To the idiots who have left laughing, I mean seriously? You shouldn't be part of any transport company if you think that this is OK! Maybe the rules are different in Romania but here they are not.

[ANDNNEE]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

[Keerakeyt]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

[daveyer]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

but why should the hauliers who play by the rules not be on a level playing field with those who pay Ltd drivers with no paye? One rule for all. I'm delighted with the outcome of this case.

[krislou]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

look up the definition of a Ltd company, its all about the work and control of the work. As a driver you have no choice wether you do the work or have one of your employees to do it, you have no choice over start or end times. the very nature of the work is all controlled by the haulage company. that's why you cannot be a Ltd company.

[ANDNNEE]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

look up the definition of a Ltd company, its all about the work and control of the work. As a driver you have no choice wether you do the work or have one of your employees to do it, you have no choice over start or end times. the very nature of the work is all controlled by the haulage company. that's why you cannot be a Ltd company.

it really makes no sense. You have a choice, you're an ltd driver, meaning you can work for whoever you want at any point without being tied in by a contract and a notice period. You have a choice of everything, being an ltd driver means that you choose, the haulage company cannot make a schedule and etc for you. You all see benefits in it yet, the ltd or self employed drivers can be let go at any point, they are not protected by any employment law and they are not getting sick pay or paid holidays. They are choosing to do that, to be at risk at all times of not having work yet everyone has an issue with it.

[krislou]

So you can have external TM and pretty much every job as self employed or ltd but not driver. Ltd plumber, ltd handy man ltd everything. Some of you just bend over to whatever bs they throw out here.

look up the definition of a Ltd company, its all about the work and control of the work. As a driver you have no choice wether you do the work or have one of your employees to do it, you have no choice over start or end times. the very nature of the work is all controlled by the haulage company. that's why you cannot be a Ltd company.

it really makes no sense. You have a choice, you're an ltd driver, meaning you can work for whoever you want at any point without being tied in by a contract and a notice period. You have a choice of everything, being an ltd driver means that you choose, the haulage company cannot make a schedule and etc for you. You all see benefits in it yet, the ltd or self employed drivers can be let go at any point, they are not protected by any employment law and they are not getting sick pay or paid holidays. They are choosing to do that, to be at risk at all times of not having work yet everyone has an issue with it.

it's nothing to do with risk. it's all about the control of the work. if you were Ltd and you were asked to cover a shift for a businesses then you don't get to chose the start time, finish time, how to do the run, which lorry to use or which driver to use. this is where a Ltd company differs as a Ltd company ie owner driver will be able to do this. the reality is that the company has an unfair advantage and as a driver if you do not have your own truck then you simply cannot be a Ltd company

[ANDNNEE]

look up the definition of a Ltd company, its all about the work and control of the work. As a driver you have no choice wether you do the work or have one of your employees to do it, you have no choice over start or end times. the very nature of the work is all controlled by the haulage company. that's why you cannot be a Ltd company.

it really makes no sense. You have a choice, you're an ltd driver, meaning you can work for whoever you want at any point without being tied in by a contract and a notice period. You have a choice of everything, being an ltd driver means that you choose, the haulage company cannot make a schedule and etc for you. You all see benefits in it yet, the ltd or self employed drivers can be let go at any point, they are not protected by any employment law and they are not getting sick pay or paid holidays. They are choosing to do that, to be at risk at all times of not having work yet everyone has an issue with it.

it's nothing to do with risk. it's all about the control of the work. if you were Ltd and you were asked to cover a shift for a businesses then you don't get to chose the start time, finish time, how to do the run, which lorry to use or which driver to use. this is where a Ltd company differs as a Ltd company ie owner driver will be able to do this. the reality is that the company has an unfair advantage and as a driver if you do not have your own truck then you simply cannot be a Ltd company

let's not make it about the control of the work. This is an HMRC issue, it's not related to the control of work.

[krislou]

it really makes no sense. You have a choice, you're an ltd driver, meaning you can work for whoever you want at any point without being tied in by a contract and a notice period. You have a choice of everything, being an ltd driver means that you choose, the haulage company cannot make a schedule and etc for you. You all see benefits in it yet, the ltd or self employed drivers can be let go at any point, they are not protected by any employment law and they are not getting sick pay or paid holidays. They are choosing to do that, to be at risk at all times of not having work yet everyone has an issue with it.

it's nothing to do with risk. it's all about the control of the work. if you were Ltd and you were asked to cover a shift for a businesses then you don't get to chose the start time, finish time, how to do the run, which lorry to use or which driver to use. this is where a Ltd company differs as a Ltd company ie owner driver will be able to do this. the reality is that the company has an unfair advantage and as a driver if you do not have your own truck then you simply cannot be a Ltd company

let's not make it about the control of the work. This is an HMRC issue, it's not related to the control of work.

HMRC or not, the whole point is that companies that use LTD drivers have an advantage over those that operate in the correct and legal way. At the end of the day, the only legal way for a driver to be a Ltd company is if they operate their own vehicle

[Gheorage]

Be aware of what? As long as they are under agency life is beautiful, it’s not about only the drivers, the companies love this, no sick pay, no holiday pay, no others stress, so cheaper.
You’re wrong, do your homework before, under agency you can work as ltd driver as much as you want for same company if they want you, now big companies have their own agencies or shareholders in agencies to work under legal requirement with ltd drivers.
If you stop using self employd drivers you will see then what actually a hgv shortage drivers looks like

[jamesreg]

About time something was done about it !!

[ANDNNEE]

About time something was done about it !!

what exactly is the issue with an LTD driver? Why does it bother people? Are they doing anything different from employed driver?

[krislou]

About time something was done about it !!

what exactly is the issue with an LTD driver? Why does it bother people? Are they doing anything different from employed driver?

yes, the businesses have an unfair advantage

[ANDNNEE]

About time something was done about it !!

what exactly is the issue with an LTD driver? Why does it bother people? Are they doing anything different from employed driver?

yes, the businesses have an unfair advantage

can you please detail what the unfair advantage is? And why is that not applicable to let's say External TM?

[krislou]

what exactly is the issue with an LTD driver? Why does it bother people? Are they doing anything different from employed driver?

yes, the businesses have an unfair advantage

can you please detail what the unfair advantage is? And why is that not applicable to let's say External TM?

the unfair advantage is that the business will have less operating costs as they do not need to pay tax or NI for the drivers saving them around 15% on wages. plus if you look at ir35 you will see the difference, an external TM can pick and choose what they do, when they do it and how they do it. as a driver you cannot, you must use the company truck, stick to their times and move their goods

[ANDNNEE]

yes, the businesses have an unfair advantage

can you please detail what the unfair advantage is? And why is that not applicable to let's say External TM?

the unfair advantage is that the business will have less operating costs as they do not need to pay tax or NI for the drivers saving them around 15% on wages. plus if you look at ir35 you will see the difference, an external TM can pick and choose what they do, when they do it and how they do it. as a driver you cannot, you must use the company truck, stick to their times and move their goods

let's agree to disagree. The truth is all ltd and self employed work the same and the same way you can be ltd or self employed plumber, engineer, electrician and etc you can be a driver. Some people just don't like it. Some drivers prefer to be employed for paid holiday sickness, stability etc and some prefer LTD and no one should have an issue with it. At the end of the day, that's all it comes down to.

[krislou]

can you please detail what the unfair advantage is? And why is that not applicable to let's say External TM?

the unfair advantage is that the business will have less operating costs as they do not need to pay tax or NI for the drivers saving them around 15% on wages. plus if you look at ir35 you will see the difference, an external TM can pick and choose what they do, when they do it and how they do it. as a driver you cannot, you must use the company truck, stick to their times and move their goods

let's agree to disagree. The truth is all ltd and self employed work the same and the same way you can be ltd or self employed plumber, engineer, electrician and etc you can be a driver. Some people just don't like it. Some drivers prefer to be employed for paid holiday sickness, stability etc and some prefer LTD and no one should have an issue with it. At the end of the day, that's all it comes down to.

or we could just agree that the law is law and should be adhered to! maybe read up on the facts

[ANDNNEE]

the unfair advantage is that the business will have less operating costs as they do not need to pay tax or NI for the drivers saving them around 15% on wages. plus if you look at ir35 you will see the difference, an external TM can pick and choose what they do, when they do it and how they do it. as a driver you cannot, you must use the company truck, stick to their times and move their goods

let's agree to disagree. The truth is all ltd and self employed work the same and the same way you can be ltd or self employed plumber, engineer, electrician and etc you can be a driver. Some people just don't like it. Some drivers prefer to be employed for paid holiday sickness, stability etc and some prefer LTD and no one should have an issue with it. At the end of the day, that's all it comes down to.

or we could just agree that the law is law and should be adhered to! maybe read up on the facts

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

[krislou]

let's agree to disagree. The truth is all ltd and self employed work the same and the same way you can be ltd or self employed plumber, engineer, electrician and etc you can be a driver. Some people just don't like it. Some drivers prefer to be employed for paid holiday sickness, stability etc and some prefer LTD and no one should have an issue with it. At the end of the day, that's all it comes down to.

or we could just agree that the law is law and should be adhered to! maybe read up on the facts

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

lmao! please go and read before you make comments. there is no lower limit

[JuzFirst]

or we could just agree that the law is law and should be adhered to! maybe read up on the facts

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

lmao! please go and read before you make comments. there is no lower limit

not necessarily I know a lot of drivers who come in to work when they want not when bosses want them and go where they want and finish whatever time

[ANDNNEE]

or we could just agree that the law is law and should be adhered to! maybe read up on the facts

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

lmao! please go and read before you make comments. there is no lower limit

my apologies, you are right there is no lower limit. My argument still stands, does the external TM not need to obey the IR35 rule and any other employment rule?

[krislou]

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

lmao! please go and read before you make comments. there is no lower limit

my apologies, you are right there is no lower limit. My argument still stands, does the external TM not need to obey the IR35 rule and any other employment rule?

but they do though. I am an External TM. for me to work I had to complete an ir35 calculation for each of my hauliers which came back that I was out of scope. please go and read the ir35 requirements. this will clear some of this up for you. After that go and have a look at all the cases that have been heard regarding companies that have been caught using Ltd drivers. you will see that regardless of what anyone thinks, the Traffic Commissioner's do not allow it hence why you cannot operate as a Ltd if your driver

[ray.chaz]

So how can you employee a drivers if you don’t have continue work for them? Very confused.

[krislou]

So how can you employee a drivers if you don’t have continue work for them? Very confused.

use agency

[1639-briwo]

Bit more to it than that if you read the article - Couldn't meet financial standing which is an automatic revocation anyway and the TM had a Polish CPC which wasn't valid

[krislou]

Bit more to it than that if you read the article - Couldn't meet financial standing which is an automatic revocation anyway and the TM had a Polish CPC which wasn't valid

agree this is just a small part of it but a part none the less. there has been 2 other cases this year which involve Ltd drivers aswell

[Ionut.Paris]

So nobody cares about prime minister paying 20% tax and his wife avoided paying £20 million in tax. But everyone feels outrage when a driver pays a few percentage less in tax.

[Smithro]

JMT Training Centre

[KAILLACE]

So how will the affect agency drivers?
Eg company A uses drivers from Agency A
Will that still be acceptable?

[krislou]

So how will the affect agency drivers?
Eg company A uses drivers from Agency A
Will that still be acceptable?

yes you can still use agency drivers buy only to fill a short term requirement. Ie you cannot just have someone with an agency for a year. There was a case where a company was doing this and was made to take all the driver on their payroll

[Bluecorn]

can you point out which law is this in? If you're referring to IR35 that is only for over 10m turnover.

lmao! please go and read before you make comments. there is no lower limit

my apologies, you are right there is no lower limit. My argument still stands, does the external TM not need to obey the IR35 rule and any other employment rule?

Have you read the article? It’s nothing to do with IR35!
It’s because the Ltd Co is using the veh with the driver employed by that Ltd Co. It’s fronting, not IR35.

And as you prob know, ETMs cannot do so as a Ltd Co, they must be paid to their personal account. And like Ltd Co drivers, if they do so as a Ltd Co and get caught, they can expect a loss of their good repute, ie their job as an ETM