A driver takes his daily rest, 9 hours (3 times in fortnight) or normal 11 hours.
A driver takes his daily rest, 9 hours (3 times in fortnight) or normal 11 hours.
Quick one - A driver takes his daily rest, 9 hours (3 times in fortnight) or normal 11 hours. Does the driver have the right to refuse to come to work if they have decided they are having 11 hours rather than 9? Bluntly, providing it is legal rest, can a company force them to take 9 hours only?
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Re: A driver takes his daily rest, 9 hours (3 times in fortnight) or normal 11 hours.
He doesn't have to come in.........but the company doesn't have to employ him either!!
Yeah the manager or secretary can drive a truck
I regularly do. Drivers drive. Managers manage!!
So you should know by now who is the main assets for transport company
yep I do and its Good drivers. Not all drivers
Yes. it's the driver's choice, not yours. You can't force them to only take 9. Perhaps a conversation with him rather than resorting immediately to the heavy brigade?
can you show proof that it is a drivers choice? If its legal it can be planned, if a driver can't be arsed to help his company out occasionally there are many others that will.
Yes it's in the gov.uk paperwork. Where does it say that the driver can't be arsed? You are making a wild assumption there I think. It might be that he has plans, family issues, whatever. They do have lives outside driving a truck believe it or not.
nope, it’s not drivers choice UNLESS he’s tired. Otherwise everything goes down to particulars of your contract of employment. Refusing to do 15/9 without a valid reason (e.g. tired) could be a breach of contract and like some one said above - driver doesn’t have to do it but you don’t have to employ them either
Check the gov.uk website. I think you might find you are incorrect
Sack him. Don’t let the tail wag the dog.
it’s a joke ffs. I am a driver!
it's the driver's choice, not the bosses.
I mean if you want to force people to drive when tired and they are highlighting to you that they are fatigued, that’s your call.
I doubt it would reflect well on you if that driver had an accident due to fatigue and has highlighted it to you and you pushed them to carry on
9 hrs rest is a joke any good employer would not be asking that question.
Aren’t they just. Still amazes non Transport friends when I tell them how often we have nine off! Most people spend longer actually asleep
This is the problem with the modern world, trucks are being driven by bloody snowflakes and are being allowed to get away with crap like this. Tell him to man up, do his job or enjoy Christmas looking for another one.
You're taking the mickey I think. Nice one!
personally I dont believe any driver should have to work longer than a 12 hour shift. That way they get 12 hours off for the night / day man to take over and do their 12 hours in the seat. Max the use of the truck, rest the drivers the best way possible
Sorry I was a bit slow. it's an issue I'm having with non-drivers atm. They seem to think all drivers should be 24x7 at work
And they’re being managed by people who only care about the bottom line.
I like my drivers and I don't want them killing themselves. They work hard for me and I like to think they are appreciated which is why they stay. I agree about the 12 hours but then that gives the poor overworked TM the issue of fitting in service inspections etc
LOL
not yet met a poor overworked TM
As for maintenance, I guess a lot is down to fleet size and if it is feasible to have a truck running day and night.
I try and juggle driving with being an external. it's not easy
not enough £££ out there for me to be a TM, thankless task made harder by drivers who think they own the company or deserve £200 an hour because they are " professional ".
I'd like to work on compliance or training when I come off the road.
makes sense to me. Compliance is easier with the CPC qual though as then people listen(sometimes!). If I can help you send me a message. I'm DGSA too if you are interested in that kind of work also
I am dgsa and have taught ADR for many years ! Do you have some contacts
Messaged you
yes 1 is the forum manager for Trucknet, 1 lives in Trowbridge and the other in Westbury. I haven't bothered doing the stuff so I can teach ADR as my TM work keeps me pretty busy and I like that more. I wouldn't mind some more DGSA work though but don't want to teach
On your next flight, would you be happy for the airline to force the flight crew to reduce their rest?
On your next flight, would you be happy for the airline to force the flight crew to reduce their rest?
The only difference is a pilot as another pilot sitting next to them, a driver doesn’t. If a driver highlights they may be too tired to drive then they should not be forced to drive. You can’t force a reduced rest regardless the reason, it’s not practical to go home, eat, relax, sleep, get up have breakfast and drive to work in 9 hours.
There’s no laws saying I can’t cut off my hand, it doesn’t make it a good idea.
the guy was after info and help on legalities what you gave him was guf. Just like your last comment about your hand. God help us.
of course it can't be forced on anyone I completely agree with that but as I said they guy was wanting to know the legalities and got a ridiculous analogy. Why bother.
Every individual operates better at different lengths of sleep. If this guy can’t then don’t force a possible issue if he has an accident. Find another transport solution!! It’s poor planning unless driver is on night out already.
thats sleep.... thats not rest
exactly so if u get 9 hrs rest how much sleep u think he or she will get in the 9hrs plus travel time, food ect not rocket science
yes thats what I meant
god forbid we have lives haha
can you imagine?
A boy can dream
Some of these comments brings up major concerns for some of your professional conduct.
Thank you / some very different views! It’s clearly a case of ethnics. Please don’t slag everyone off, planning jobs can be different company’s depending if it is emergency work
hardly ethics, it's the law!
In that 9 hours is he expected to travel home, eat, rest, sleep and travel back? If so, then that's a tough old slog. If it's emergency work and it is in his contract that at times they'll be required to reduce their rest because of this then maybe a polite reminder but I don't think you can force anyone to reduce rest. The regs state 11 hours is the minimum, the reduction is only an option not a requirement
perfect answer I feel! Thank you! I can’t get over how angry and jumping to assumptions people are getting over a simple question
this site is getting bad for it and sometimes you dare not comment as you just know you will get your head bitten off
or the piss taken out of you 
Ahh you know what TMs are like
I have 12 trampers so reducing their rest means getting up a bit earlier or working a bit longer there's no issue of travelling home etc. I can well imagine that if they weren't out all week I would face the same issue of refusing to reduce x
and this is the issue.. trampers love the hours and will max their card week in week out whereas day drivers don't necessarily want them and dont want 13 / 14 / 15 hour days.
no and I could understand that. 13-15 hours is a long old day never mind having to be back on the job 9 hours later at the earliest. Trampers have the "luxury" (I use that term loosely lol) to not have the bother of travelling home and back etc. They can pull up and go on rest. Its all down to getting it clear from the start. I ask my lot to make good progress but don't break the law. They're made aware that at times a delayed loading or unloading might extend their day but I'll try to compensate for that in the days following. Works both ways
how it should be, well done. As a driver I would hope if I got shafted into a few long days I would get a couple of shorter to compensate. Its when you get them all the time as no one else wants them it becomes an issue. Fortunately where I am now I rarely work over 12 hours a day and the compliance team are all over it if our hours start to creep up.
I'm finding it hard to find and keep good drivers here in Poole so I'm looking after the ones who are staying with me through tough times and I'm getting the respect and hard work back from them.
If the regulations state 11 hours is the minimum, why are reduced rest periods of 9 hours available ??
I don't know, have you written to ask them? It's not there to force people to work longer or rest less.
If it wasn't an option everyone would moan there was no flexibility.
After reading your comment, I would say you don't know this industry very well.
I don't need to write to them, I've read the regulations (EC) 561/2006 and I understand them
I think most people on this post need to read these regs, chapter 2, Article 8.
Everyone is going on about forcing tired drivers to work 15 hours and have a reduced rest, why ?
The OP never mentioned in his original post the driver was complaining he was tired or have I missed something ??
Anyone that wants to work in transport has to be flexible to get the job done.
Timed deliveries are just that, you can't turn round and say our drivers will be late today as they are having a lie in because they did one 15 hours earlier in the week and they need their beauty sleep.
Any operator who sends out a tired driver does want shooting but the driver has to be flexible and help, if people want a life then general transport is not the career for you.
I've done shift driving and tramping in the past, always preferred tramping as I went home on a Friday/Saturday all refreshed as I'd slept well in the truck.
Never liked shifts but I got on with it and got the job done.
No one ever forced me to reduce my rest but I've run my own business so I know the job needs doing to get the money in.
If you can't be flexible, don't expect to be employed for long
you asked me why there is an option to reduce then accuse me of not knowing the industry very well, why?
Everyone needs to be flexible in any industry not just transport I never said otherwise.
Your comment showed your lack of knowledge.
You had previously said the regs state 11 hours is the minimum but there's an option to reduce.
That comment doesn't make sense either ??
I get annoyed when people comment on a TM group that actually don't exactly know.what they are quoting or talking about.
A lot of these comments is what I'd expect on a driver's forum
you know what annoys me? When someone quotes the wrong regs... 561/2006
And the regs DO state 11 hours is minimum but it also says there is the option to reduce.. where is this wrong?
I hadn't even noticed that error, I've now corrected it so I ask where does it state 11 hours is the minimum ??
At least... minimum..
And sorry, I did find it a little amusing and assumed it was a typo. The irony
That screenshot is not from the actual Regulations (EC) 561/2006. That quote has been rewritten from the regs, where has you screenshot that from ??
If I'm honest I have never understood why you would say something MUST be done and make it a law but then say well actually you can flex that a couple of times when you need to. Its like setting a speed limit then letting people go over a little bit... but nevertheless it's the regs and the regs we must follow
Not the exact wording of the regulations no, I agree but the interpretation you read on the Gov website is not inaccurate is it?
Anyway, this has taken up more of my evening than I wanted and thanks for the chuckle
.. note to self ..
If vacancy offered by Richard then politely refuse as he appears to run his operations in the same way the plantation owners did.
If vacancy offered by Caroline then consider moving to Poole and be appreciated for your hard work/efforts and when she is in the shit be happy to go that extra mile to get the job done.
What's in the co track of employment, company policies and what precedents have been set with other employees. On one extreme it could be that he wants to be stubborn, at the other extreme the company could be targeting him whilst others are not asked or expected. Slippery slope that works both ways.
9 hrs is fine im 25 years old
The answer to the question is,
Yes the driver does have the right to refuse to come to work.
The drivers daily rest is 11 hours that he may reduce to 9 hours up to three times a week.
You can’t force him and if you disciplined him for not reducing it he could drag your arse through a tribunal and you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.
it's 3 times between weekly rest periods if you're going to start giving out THE correct answer
I’m sorry but I do not agree that legislation tells us who makes the decision.
A company cannot force an employer to do anything, however in the same way the employee cannot force an employer to employ them.
A reasonable management request is exactly that. Asking the drivers to utilise a reduced daily rest is well within legislation - and it is an operators responsibility to schedule work within legislation. Of course if a driver claims fatigue/exhaustion/tiredness fine ..... record it. If it becomes an ongoing situation we would have to review the drivers health.
I am not discussing ethics or morals or what you or anyone else thinks - the fact is that a reduced daily rest is available To be used and can therefore be scheduled legally
There is only one item in 561/2006 that stipulates something is a drivers choice and that is article 12 which clearly states (as does DVSA GV262) that it is the drivers decision.
I was told by the person in charge of DVSA Policy that the regulators think very carefully about wording of legislation. If they don’t include wording to the effect that something is a specific persons decision - then it isn’t.
However, I personally believe employees do as employers ask and not the other way round.
He can be planned for a reduced rest yes he is under no obligation to accept though....if the driver maybe had been given proper notice then this could have been avoided so that adequate rest previous nights could be taken
I would message you stating I’m tired and need my 11h rest and would see
If you insist on 9h by text
How many hours did he work yesterday? If he worked over 13 he is on a reducer anyway so him taking 11 off won't make a difference legally, just means he will get an extra 2 hours
time.
If we’re being reasonable I would say that reduced rests were clearly conceived for if the driver is sleeping out with the vehicle. I don’t think forcing anyone back to work after just 9 hours off is a good idea, especially if they’re driving. What happens if they have an accident
9hr rests are ok if you are tramping in the wagon. I commute 30 minutes each way to/from work so if I had 9hr rest, I'm probably getting 6hr sleep
This is the type of question I'd expect on a driver's forum, not a TM forum.
This industry is 24/7 x 365 days so give and take is the key but as some have already mentioned, snowflakes.
If a driver comes in to this industry and wants to work 8/10 hours, get yourself on for a builders merchant delivering to customers houses.
If an operator wants to plan the driver for a reduced rest, that's perfectly legal but the operator does have a duty of care for his driver's.
The driver can't really come with the tired card all the time as they will soon be out of a job so this is where the give and take comes in.
In my years of driving I was never told to reduce my rest, I was always asked !
If I'd done two reduced rest on the trot and the operator said to me, do another reduced and I said no, I'm knackered, they'd be fine as they can see I probably am knackered.
Reduced rests are more suited to tramping but I have spent 2 hours commuting on reduced rests and just got on with it, if you want to work and earn ££, you'll just get the job done.
Give and take, if you don't like it, change career
and that, to me, is a spot on answer.
And that is why so many things go wrong in this industry
Would you like to explain your statement, thanks
Commuting 2hrs on a 9hr rest? I would so you are foolish or a "yes man" then.
As I've said above, it's all about give and take.
If a job wanted doing, I'd do it. I was bought up in the industry so I'm well aware how the industry works and has to work.
I made the mistake of coming back in to industry 16 years ago and now don't drive as I'm a TM.
One thing I'm known for is standing up for what I believe in and a yes man is definitely something I've never been and I would never ask a driver to do something I wouldn't do myself or that is illegal or putting someone at risk of an accident.
I think drivers now come in to this industry without actually doing some homework first.
Like I keep saying, it's all about give and take.
Some operators just want to take, some drivers just want to take, find a happy medium and everyone is happy
Personally I've always thought the 9 hours is only really suitable for tamper or over nights.
Day drivers need 11, they need time to get home, shower, eat, sleep, eat, get back to work.
It really needs to be on an optional basis.
You'll always get a few who hardly sleep and will be happy to do it.
However, I really wouldn't want to be sending out a tired driver.
This occured within a company I worked for previously and went to employment tribunal, the short answer is, a driver may choose to extend their days/reduce their rest and the operator has no say in it.
The operator also had no recourse for any disciplinary actions as it is all on the driver to decide if they are fit to extend their day or reduce their rest.
Be very VERY careful about how you handle the driver afterwards, any change in treatment could lead to claims of constructive dismissal etc
Why would a company want to force an employee to only take 9 hours rest? Surely if the driver is requesting 11 (which they have every right to), then they need that extra rest. Clearly they have done 9 hours previously, so isn’t exactly a driver just being stubborn.
Legally, it depends on the contract. Our contracts state that drivers are required to work variable hours in line with rules on drivers hours. If they are asked to reduce to 9 off but say they can’t because of fatigue that’s fair enough and they shouldn’t be expected to reduce. However, most hauliers have to work around delivery times set by the customer. If they aren’t able to offer an alternative delivery the driver may have to be stood down. Again, depending on the contract, the driver may only then be paid for being stood down, which is around £30 and not full pay. Which I can’t imagine many drivers being happy with!
If they have an ongoing health issue which means they can never have less than 11 hours off, this is something that should be discussed as they apply for the job (or as the problem arises) as they shouldn’t sign a contract that they’re not prepared to/able to stick to.
The thing I hate about reading these comments is the ‘us’ and ‘them’ attitude. I don’t know why drivers and hauliers can’t work together to get the job done!
Well said
This thread highlights the main problems in the industry I think. A total lack of respect for drivers and their welfare. Without good drivers your companies screwed. They should be treated with respect.
there are also drivers that play on it and milk it. It's got to be give and take on case by case
Firstly drivers hours law and health and safety legislation trumps any employment contract.
Drivers hours law is full of 'may' and 'should', nowhere does it state 'must'. It certainly doesn't state 'you must comply with all and any instructions given by management'.
If the driver wants 11 hours off he/she is entitled to it and if they say something along the lines of 'I'm tired boss, I need a good sleep'. Good luck with whatever you try to use in court as a defence.
any decent contract/employee handbook would contain the relevant information regarding drivers hours and health and safety law. Because that is what all companies should operate under.
Like you say if the driver wants 11 hours off because they’re tired then they absolutely must say to the operator. However, the operator is not obliged to pay the driver if they cannot do the work. They can stand them down.
https://www.acas.org.uk/lay-offs-and-short-time-working
irrelevant.
how’s that irrelevant??
because its not relevant to the question.
It's perfectly fine to schedule a driver to have the 3 reduced rests in between weekly rests.
The narrative that a lot of drivers have is this "reduced rest is at my discretion/10 hour drive is for my discretion to get me home etc" is, nonsense and very frustrating to be on the receiving end of in a management position.
Having said that, I am also a driver and 9 hours off is not a long time, and with a bit of a commute it leaves zero time for any life stuff and the driver will not be getting sufficient sleep.
So, the rules are one thing, the ethics are another. In an ideal world both driver and manager would work together to say "look boss, I'm shattered, can we have a word". But this is rarely how it works in reality.
If he lives far from depot or he finds it too much and that is what the job requires then it needs a mutual discussion about if its the best job for him to be in.
Not sure if you have read drivers hours rules but its quite clear in the wording. "A driver must take at least 11 continuous hours of rest (called a regular daily rest period). However, this daily rest requirement can be reduced to 9 continuous hours up to 3 times between weekly rest periods (called a reduced daily rest period)." The rest period is 11 hours, yes it can or maybe reduced to 9 three times a week. Any planner planning to give drivers a 9 hour rest is a fool. You plan in that one last delivery or collection and something goes wrong. You not only have a driver stranded but at least one pissed of customer.
Please could you tell me where it in the rules it says a driver must take at least 11 continuous hours of rest ?
I'm quite intrigued to read this
You have also told Tom Reddy that it says "A driver must take"
But in another comment you quoted it doesn't say "must" ?
I'm a bit lost now
Sorry but please can you highlight which 11 words you are talking about
I already did! Ill be polite and say no more.
Well clearly no if the driver decides he wants 11 hours off that’s his choice no different to any other employee
So if he commutes home 1/2 an hour hour for tea and chat with family up an hour before his shift starts and that’s including 1/2 hr for travel on a 9 so basically that person has had 7 hrs rest if he switches off like a light switch and then he is expected to do a days work your a bloody fool
It's a fallacy that many drivers use to try and pull the wool over a planners eyes. It is of course a nonsense and should be dealt with as such!
I used to work for an employer who insisted on reduced rests all the time, so I asked the DVSA if there was anything in their books that say at who's request the reductions in rest were allowed, i.e. can my employer force me to have reduced rest. The reply was it doesn't stipulate, but they couldn't see a court or judge in the land at a tribunal going against a driver who refused because they were tired as the only person who knows how much rest the driver needs is the driver.
As others here have already stated the amount of sleep a driver needs can vary from day to day so needs to be a bit of give and take. Ultimately the driver has the final say because he can always decide not to turn the key and given that there is a shortage of HGV licence holders willing to do the job anymore I think its something every TM / Employer should give consideration to. Just because drivers have always been expected to do long hours and reduced rests doesn't mean it needs to continue that way try to make the industry better not keep it the way it's always been.
15 hours a day working and 9 hours rest are the maximum limits. They are not targets and any planner that thinks they are should think again. It is always the drivers final decision.
If I was the driver I’d be taking 11 hours as that is the minimum rest required yes you can reduce but he’s in his rights to say no
If you go down the route of sacking him it could be a mine field
After a fatal accident a driver says they felt exhausted but their boss forced them to have reduced rests to honour a contract, the driver knows they could loose their licence so uses this as mitigation.
Where do you stand at the PI?
I think a reasonable request will be followed but forcing a driver leaves this a possibility. It is the drivers choice and those that suggest termination of employment have never faced an employment tribunal for constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal. Again if the employment tribunal finds in the drivers favour then expect a call to a PI for encouraging dangerous practices or forcing a driver to reduce rests when they have refused and purported to be too knackered to drive safely.
Any iof you who think it is acceptable to force a driver to only take 9 hours make me glad I have now moved into TM and I can look after my drivers and not leave them to the tender mercies of you lot!
I don't think anyone thinks it's acceptable to force any driver to have a reduced rest but a lot of us do think it's acceptable to plan a reduce rest for a driver.
In an ideal world this would be with notice so the driver can make sure they have had sufficient rest.
If the driver is tired then they have a longer rest but they can't come with that excuse everyday as then questions need to be asked about their health and out of work activities.
Any driver coming in to general transport that can't be flexible ain't going to be in a job very long
think its madness to plan in a reduced rest. It leaves you no wriggle room for any mishaps in the day. You risk letting at least one customer down and stranding the driver.
You say it's madness to plan in a reduced rest but this is where a good planner and a good driver have to work together.
If it's a shift driver, then I agree, it can be stupid to plan a full 15 hour shift as holds up happens and then the driver is being rescued which isn't legal if over time !
In the past I've worked for operators where I'd of worked a 15 hour day but then had a minimum of 11 hours rest. The next day I may of only worked a 12/13 hour shift but because of the next day's work, I've been asked to reduce that rest to a 9 hour.
Very rare I'd say no as I've run a large business of my own many years ago so I understand people need to be flexible.
If I ever did say no, they knew i was tired so never an issue.
I did a few years of tramping and 15 hour days and 9 hour rests work well as you're living in a tin box for 5/6 days, you want the hours in.
Shifts and the long days, short rests can be hard work and tiring but that is the haulage industry and it's unlikely to change much in the near future.
At times I wish I'd never come back in to it
I can see that and it makes sense. Perhaps some on here don't word their posts quite as well as you do.
I don't always write well but I was bought up in the industry and understand it well.
I left school and did normal things but came back in to the industry 16 years ago, I did 10 years of driving in most sectors to gain the experience so to become a TM.
I never think, it's "us and them" as I know the difficulties and frustrations that come from driving but they also know they can't pull the wool over my eyes.
I stand up for what I believe in and if that involves shafting the operator to protect a driver, then I do it.
I've not long had a driver who got 6 points for mobile phone use in a truck, I informed the TC but I defended him as the operator was partly to blame. The driver got away with a warning off the TC, no ban which never happens and the operator got a stern warning and yes, I still work for them.
As a TM I'm there to protect my drivers, other road users, the general public and not forgetting the operator.
No one takes priority as they are all equal in my book, I have a conscience and I like to sleep soundly
well said mate, conscience and backbone go hand in hand
Integrity and having a conscience is something I'm proud of mate so my standards are high and it does cause issues in this industry, that's why I do question my sanity at times
the nail that stands out gets hammered first
I can see the point of planning it in if you are stuck but it should still be a question asked of the driver rather than a brick bat. I can see why so many drivers think of TMs as running on an 'us and them' way of doing things after reading some of the attitudes in here though
although using your reduced rest as contingency also makes sense to me too. Perhaps I should read more
I think you put that beautifully. I am very possessive of my drivers and they look after me. As far as I am concernced my job wouldn't exist without them but I admit I am lucky and have a few very good drivers who know what they are doing. I look after 3 clients at the moment in Avon, Wiltshire and Berkshire and they look after me. It's sad probably to say it but I love my job, although it does have it's days!!
I have driven since 2000 so I know what you mean about 'wool and eyes' though
It’s nice to here humanity within this post
Yeah the manager or secretary can drive a truck
I regularly do. Drivers drive. Managers manage!!
So you should know by now who is the main assets for transport company
yep I do and its Good drivers. Not all drivers
Yes. it's the driver's choice, not yours. You can't force them to only take 9. Perhaps a conversation with him rather than resorting immediately to the heavy brigade?
can you show proof that it is a drivers choice? If its legal it can be planned, if a driver can't be arsed to help his company out occasionally there are many others that will.
Yes it's in the gov.uk paperwork. Where does it say that the driver can't be arsed? You are making a wild assumption there I think. It might be that he has plans, family issues, whatever. They do have lives outside driving a truck believe it or not.
nope, it’s not drivers choice UNLESS he’s tired. Otherwise everything goes down to particulars of your contract of employment. Refusing to do 15/9 without a valid reason (e.g. tired) could be a breach of contract and like some one said above - driver doesn’t have to do it but you don’t have to employ them either
Check the gov.uk website. I think you might find you are incorrect
Sack him. Don’t let the tail wag the dog.
it’s a joke ffs. I am a driver!
it's the driver's choice, not the bosses.
I mean if you want to force people to drive when tired and they are highlighting to you that they are fatigued, that’s your call.
I doubt it would reflect well on you if that driver had an accident due to fatigue and has highlighted it to you and you pushed them to carry on
9 hrs rest is a joke any good employer would not be asking that question.
Aren’t they just. Still amazes non Transport friends when I tell them how often we have nine off! Most people spend longer actually asleep
This is the problem with the modern world, trucks are being driven by bloody snowflakes and are being allowed to get away with crap like this. Tell him to man up, do his job or enjoy Christmas looking for another one.
You're taking the mickey I think. Nice one!
personally I dont believe any driver should have to work longer than a 12 hour shift. That way they get 12 hours off for the night / day man to take over and do their 12 hours in the seat. Max the use of the truck, rest the drivers the best way possible
Sorry I was a bit slow. it's an issue I'm having with non-drivers atm. They seem to think all drivers should be 24x7 at work
And they’re being managed by people who only care about the bottom line.
I like my drivers and I don't want them killing themselves. They work hard for me and I like to think they are appreciated which is why they stay. I agree about the 12 hours but then that gives the poor overworked TM the issue of fitting in service inspections etc
LOLnot yet met a poor overworked TM
As for maintenance, I guess a lot is down to fleet size and if it is feasible to have a truck running day and night.
I try and juggle driving with being an external. it's not easy
not enough £££ out there for me to be a TM, thankless task made harder by drivers who think they own the company or deserve £200 an hour because they are " professional ".
I'd like to work on compliance or training when I come off the road.
makes sense to me. Compliance is easier with the CPC qual though as then people listen(sometimes!). If I can help you send me a message. I'm DGSA too if you are interested in that kind of work also
I am dgsa and have taught ADR for many years ! Do you have some contacts
Messaged you
yes 1 is the forum manager for Trucknet, 1 lives in Trowbridge and the other in Westbury. I haven't bothered doing the stuff so I can teach ADR as my TM work keeps me pretty busy and I like that more. I wouldn't mind some more DGSA work though but don't want to teach
On your next flight, would you be happy for the airline to force the flight crew to reduce their rest?
On your next flight, would you be happy for the airline to force the flight crew to reduce their rest?
The only difference is a pilot as another pilot sitting next to them, a driver doesn’t. If a driver highlights they may be too tired to drive then they should not be forced to drive. You can’t force a reduced rest regardless the reason, it’s not practical to go home, eat, relax, sleep, get up have breakfast and drive to work in 9 hours.
There’s no laws saying I can’t cut off my hand, it doesn’t make it a good idea.
the guy was after info and help on legalities what you gave him was guf. Just like your last comment about your hand. God help us.
of course it can't be forced on anyone I completely agree with that but as I said they guy was wanting to know the legalities and got a ridiculous analogy. Why bother.
Every individual operates better at different lengths of sleep. If this guy can’t then don’t force a possible issue if he has an accident. Find another transport solution!! It’s poor planning unless driver is on night out already.
thats sleep.... thats not rest
exactly so if u get 9 hrs rest how much sleep u think he or she will get in the 9hrs plus travel time, food ect not rocket science
yes thats what I meant
god forbid we have lives haha
can you imagine?
A boy can dream
Some of these comments brings up major concerns for some of your professional conduct.
Thank you / some very different views! It’s clearly a case of ethnics. Please don’t slag everyone off, planning jobs can be different company’s depending if it is emergency work
hardly ethics, it's the law!
In that 9 hours is he expected to travel home, eat, rest, sleep and travel back? If so, then that's a tough old slog. If it's emergency work and it is in his contract that at times they'll be required to reduce their rest because of this then maybe a polite reminder but I don't think you can force anyone to reduce rest. The regs state 11 hours is the minimum, the reduction is only an option not a requirement
perfect answer I feel! Thank you! I can’t get over how angry and jumping to assumptions people are getting over a simple question
this site is getting bad for it and sometimes you dare not comment as you just know you will get your head bitten off
or the piss taken out of you 
Ahh you know what TMs are like
I have 12 trampers so reducing their rest means getting up a bit earlier or working a bit longer there's no issue of travelling home etc. I can well imagine that if they weren't out all week I would face the same issue of refusing to reduce xand this is the issue.. trampers love the hours and will max their card week in week out whereas day drivers don't necessarily want them and dont want 13 / 14 / 15 hour days.
no and I could understand that. 13-15 hours is a long old day never mind having to be back on the job 9 hours later at the earliest. Trampers have the "luxury" (I use that term loosely lol) to not have the bother of travelling home and back etc. They can pull up and go on rest. Its all down to getting it clear from the start. I ask my lot to make good progress but don't break the law. They're made aware that at times a delayed loading or unloading might extend their day but I'll try to compensate for that in the days following. Works both ways
how it should be, well done. As a driver I would hope if I got shafted into a few long days I would get a couple of shorter to compensate. Its when you get them all the time as no one else wants them it becomes an issue. Fortunately where I am now I rarely work over 12 hours a day and the compliance team are all over it if our hours start to creep up.
I'm finding it hard to find and keep good drivers here in Poole so I'm looking after the ones who are staying with me through tough times and I'm getting the respect and hard work back from them.
If the regulations state 11 hours is the minimum, why are reduced rest periods of 9 hours available ??
I don't know, have you written to ask them? It's not there to force people to work longer or rest less.
If it wasn't an option everyone would moan there was no flexibility.
After reading your comment, I would say you don't know this industry very well.
I don't need to write to them, I've read the regulations (EC) 561/2006 and I understand them
I think most people on this post need to read these regs, chapter 2, Article 8.
Everyone is going on about forcing tired drivers to work 15 hours and have a reduced rest, why ?
The OP never mentioned in his original post the driver was complaining he was tired or have I missed something ??
Anyone that wants to work in transport has to be flexible to get the job done.
Timed deliveries are just that, you can't turn round and say our drivers will be late today as they are having a lie in because they did one 15 hours earlier in the week and they need their beauty sleep.
Any operator who sends out a tired driver does want shooting but the driver has to be flexible and help, if people want a life then general transport is not the career for you.
I've done shift driving and tramping in the past, always preferred tramping as I went home on a Friday/Saturday all refreshed as I'd slept well in the truck.
Never liked shifts but I got on with it and got the job done.
No one ever forced me to reduce my rest but I've run my own business so I know the job needs doing to get the money in.
If you can't be flexible, don't expect to be employed for long
you asked me why there is an option to reduce then accuse me of not knowing the industry very well, why?
Everyone needs to be flexible in any industry not just transport I never said otherwise.
Your comment showed your lack of knowledge.
You had previously said the regs state 11 hours is the minimum but there's an option to reduce.
That comment doesn't make sense either ??
I get annoyed when people comment on a TM group that actually don't exactly know.what they are quoting or talking about.
A lot of these comments is what I'd expect on a driver's forum
you know what annoys me? When someone quotes the wrong regs... 561/2006
And the regs DO state 11 hours is minimum but it also says there is the option to reduce.. where is this wrong?
I hadn't even noticed that error, I've now corrected it so I ask where does it state 11 hours is the minimum ??
At least... minimum..
And sorry, I did find it a little amusing and assumed it was a typo. The irony
That screenshot is not from the actual Regulations (EC) 561/2006. That quote has been rewritten from the regs, where has you screenshot that from ??
If I'm honest I have never understood why you would say something MUST be done and make it a law but then say well actually you can flex that a couple of times when you need to. Its like setting a speed limit then letting people go over a little bit... but nevertheless it's the regs and the regs we must follow
Not the exact wording of the regulations no, I agree but the interpretation you read on the Gov website is not inaccurate is it?
Anyway, this has taken up more of my evening than I wanted and thanks for the chuckle
.. note to self ..
If vacancy offered by Richard then politely refuse as he appears to run his operations in the same way the plantation owners did.
If vacancy offered by Caroline then consider moving to Poole and be appreciated for your hard work/efforts and when she is in the shit be happy to go that extra mile to get the job done.
What's in the co track of employment, company policies and what precedents have been set with other employees. On one extreme it could be that he wants to be stubborn, at the other extreme the company could be targeting him whilst others are not asked or expected. Slippery slope that works both ways.
9 hrs is fine im 25 years old
The answer to the question is,
Yes the driver does have the right to refuse to come to work.
The drivers daily rest is 11 hours that he may reduce to 9 hours up to three times a week.
You can’t force him and if you disciplined him for not reducing it he could drag your arse through a tribunal and you wouldn’t have a leg to stand on.
it's 3 times between weekly rest periods if you're going to start giving out THE correct answer
I’m sorry but I do not agree that legislation tells us who makes the decision.
A company cannot force an employer to do anything, however in the same way the employee cannot force an employer to employ them.
A reasonable management request is exactly that. Asking the drivers to utilise a reduced daily rest is well within legislation - and it is an operators responsibility to schedule work within legislation. Of course if a driver claims fatigue/exhaustion/tiredness fine ..... record it. If it becomes an ongoing situation we would have to review the drivers health.
I am not discussing ethics or morals or what you or anyone else thinks - the fact is that a reduced daily rest is available To be used and can therefore be scheduled legally
There is only one item in 561/2006 that stipulates something is a drivers choice and that is article 12 which clearly states (as does DVSA GV262) that it is the drivers decision.
I was told by the person in charge of DVSA Policy that the regulators think very carefully about wording of legislation. If they don’t include wording to the effect that something is a specific persons decision - then it isn’t.
However, I personally believe employees do as employers ask and not the other way round.
He can be planned for a reduced rest yes he is under no obligation to accept though....if the driver maybe had been given proper notice then this could have been avoided so that adequate rest previous nights could be taken
I would message you stating I’m tired and need my 11h rest and would see
If you insist on 9h by text
How many hours did he work yesterday? If he worked over 13 he is on a reducer anyway so him taking 11 off won't make a difference legally, just means he will get an extra 2 hours
time.If we’re being reasonable I would say that reduced rests were clearly conceived for if the driver is sleeping out with the vehicle. I don’t think forcing anyone back to work after just 9 hours off is a good idea, especially if they’re driving. What happens if they have an accident
9hr rests are ok if you are tramping in the wagon. I commute 30 minutes each way to/from work so if I had 9hr rest, I'm probably getting 6hr sleep
This is the type of question I'd expect on a driver's forum, not a TM forum.
This industry is 24/7 x 365 days so give and take is the key but as some have already mentioned, snowflakes.
If a driver comes in to this industry and wants to work 8/10 hours, get yourself on for a builders merchant delivering to customers houses.
If an operator wants to plan the driver for a reduced rest, that's perfectly legal but the operator does have a duty of care for his driver's.
The driver can't really come with the tired card all the time as they will soon be out of a job so this is where the give and take comes in.
In my years of driving I was never told to reduce my rest, I was always asked !
If I'd done two reduced rest on the trot and the operator said to me, do another reduced and I said no, I'm knackered, they'd be fine as they can see I probably am knackered.
Reduced rests are more suited to tramping but I have spent 2 hours commuting on reduced rests and just got on with it, if you want to work and earn ££, you'll just get the job done.
Give and take, if you don't like it, change career
and that, to me, is a spot on answer.
And that is why so many things go wrong in this industry
Would you like to explain your statement, thanks
Commuting 2hrs on a 9hr rest? I would so you are foolish or a "yes man" then.
As I've said above, it's all about give and take.
If a job wanted doing, I'd do it. I was bought up in the industry so I'm well aware how the industry works and has to work.
I made the mistake of coming back in to industry 16 years ago and now don't drive as I'm a TM.
One thing I'm known for is standing up for what I believe in and a yes man is definitely something I've never been and I would never ask a driver to do something I wouldn't do myself or that is illegal or putting someone at risk of an accident.
I think drivers now come in to this industry without actually doing some homework first.
Like I keep saying, it's all about give and take.
Some operators just want to take, some drivers just want to take, find a happy medium and everyone is happy
Personally I've always thought the 9 hours is only really suitable for tamper or over nights.
Day drivers need 11, they need time to get home, shower, eat, sleep, eat, get back to work.
It really needs to be on an optional basis.
You'll always get a few who hardly sleep and will be happy to do it.
However, I really wouldn't want to be sending out a tired driver.
This occured within a company I worked for previously and went to employment tribunal, the short answer is, a driver may choose to extend their days/reduce their rest and the operator has no say in it.
The operator also had no recourse for any disciplinary actions as it is all on the driver to decide if they are fit to extend their day or reduce their rest.
Be very VERY careful about how you handle the driver afterwards, any change in treatment could lead to claims of constructive dismissal etc
Why would a company want to force an employee to only take 9 hours rest? Surely if the driver is requesting 11 (which they have every right to), then they need that extra rest. Clearly they have done 9 hours previously, so isn’t exactly a driver just being stubborn.
Legally, it depends on the contract. Our contracts state that drivers are required to work variable hours in line with rules on drivers hours. If they are asked to reduce to 9 off but say they can’t because of fatigue that’s fair enough and they shouldn’t be expected to reduce. However, most hauliers have to work around delivery times set by the customer. If they aren’t able to offer an alternative delivery the driver may have to be stood down. Again, depending on the contract, the driver may only then be paid for being stood down, which is around £30 and not full pay. Which I can’t imagine many drivers being happy with!
If they have an ongoing health issue which means they can never have less than 11 hours off, this is something that should be discussed as they apply for the job (or as the problem arises) as they shouldn’t sign a contract that they’re not prepared to/able to stick to.
The thing I hate about reading these comments is the ‘us’ and ‘them’ attitude. I don’t know why drivers and hauliers can’t work together to get the job done!
Well said
This thread highlights the main problems in the industry I think. A total lack of respect for drivers and their welfare. Without good drivers your companies screwed. They should be treated with respect.
there are also drivers that play on it and milk it. It's got to be give and take on case by case
Firstly drivers hours law and health and safety legislation trumps any employment contract.
Drivers hours law is full of 'may' and 'should', nowhere does it state 'must'. It certainly doesn't state 'you must comply with all and any instructions given by management'.
If the driver wants 11 hours off he/she is entitled to it and if they say something along the lines of 'I'm tired boss, I need a good sleep'. Good luck with whatever you try to use in court as a defence.
any decent contract/employee handbook would contain the relevant information regarding drivers hours and health and safety law. Because that is what all companies should operate under.
Like you say if the driver wants 11 hours off because they’re tired then they absolutely must say to the operator. However, the operator is not obliged to pay the driver if they cannot do the work. They can stand them down.
https://www.acas.org.uk/lay-offs-and-short-time-working
irrelevant.
how’s that irrelevant??
because its not relevant to the question.
It's perfectly fine to schedule a driver to have the 3 reduced rests in between weekly rests.
The narrative that a lot of drivers have is this "reduced rest is at my discretion/10 hour drive is for my discretion to get me home etc" is, nonsense and very frustrating to be on the receiving end of in a management position.
Having said that, I am also a driver and 9 hours off is not a long time, and with a bit of a commute it leaves zero time for any life stuff and the driver will not be getting sufficient sleep.
So, the rules are one thing, the ethics are another. In an ideal world both driver and manager would work together to say "look boss, I'm shattered, can we have a word". But this is rarely how it works in reality.
If he lives far from depot or he finds it too much and that is what the job requires then it needs a mutual discussion about if its the best job for him to be in.
Not sure if you have read drivers hours rules but its quite clear in the wording. "A driver must take at least 11 continuous hours of rest (called a regular daily rest period). However, this daily rest requirement can be reduced to 9 continuous hours up to 3 times between weekly rest periods (called a reduced daily rest period)." The rest period is 11 hours, yes it can or maybe reduced to 9 three times a week. Any planner planning to give drivers a 9 hour rest is a fool. You plan in that one last delivery or collection and something goes wrong. You not only have a driver stranded but at least one pissed of customer.
Please could you tell me where it in the rules it says a driver must take at least 11 continuous hours of rest ?
I'm quite intrigued to read this
You have also told Tom Reddy that it says "A driver must take"
But in another comment you quoted it doesn't say "must" ?
I'm a bit lost now
Sorry but please can you highlight which 11 words you are talking about
I already did! Ill be polite and say no more.
Well clearly no if the driver decides he wants 11 hours off that’s his choice no different to any other employee
So if he commutes home 1/2 an hour hour for tea and chat with family up an hour before his shift starts and that’s including 1/2 hr for travel on a 9 so basically that person has had 7 hrs rest if he switches off like a light switch and then he is expected to do a days work your a bloody fool
It's a fallacy that many drivers use to try and pull the wool over a planners eyes. It is of course a nonsense and should be dealt with as such!
I used to work for an employer who insisted on reduced rests all the time, so I asked the DVSA if there was anything in their books that say at who's request the reductions in rest were allowed, i.e. can my employer force me to have reduced rest. The reply was it doesn't stipulate, but they couldn't see a court or judge in the land at a tribunal going against a driver who refused because they were tired as the only person who knows how much rest the driver needs is the driver.
As others here have already stated the amount of sleep a driver needs can vary from day to day so needs to be a bit of give and take. Ultimately the driver has the final say because he can always decide not to turn the key and given that there is a shortage of HGV licence holders willing to do the job anymore I think its something every TM / Employer should give consideration to. Just because drivers have always been expected to do long hours and reduced rests doesn't mean it needs to continue that way try to make the industry better not keep it the way it's always been.
15 hours a day working and 9 hours rest are the maximum limits. They are not targets and any planner that thinks they are should think again. It is always the drivers final decision.
If I was the driver I’d be taking 11 hours as that is the minimum rest required yes you can reduce but he’s in his rights to say no
If you go down the route of sacking him it could be a mine field
After a fatal accident a driver says they felt exhausted but their boss forced them to have reduced rests to honour a contract, the driver knows they could loose their licence so uses this as mitigation.
Where do you stand at the PI?
I think a reasonable request will be followed but forcing a driver leaves this a possibility. It is the drivers choice and those that suggest termination of employment have never faced an employment tribunal for constructive dismissal or unfair dismissal. Again if the employment tribunal finds in the drivers favour then expect a call to a PI for encouraging dangerous practices or forcing a driver to reduce rests when they have refused and purported to be too knackered to drive safely.
Any iof you who think it is acceptable to force a driver to only take 9 hours make me glad I have now moved into TM and I can look after my drivers and not leave them to the tender mercies of you lot!
I don't think anyone thinks it's acceptable to force any driver to have a reduced rest but a lot of us do think it's acceptable to plan a reduce rest for a driver.
In an ideal world this would be with notice so the driver can make sure they have had sufficient rest.
If the driver is tired then they have a longer rest but they can't come with that excuse everyday as then questions need to be asked about their health and out of work activities.
Any driver coming in to general transport that can't be flexible ain't going to be in a job very long
think its madness to plan in a reduced rest. It leaves you no wriggle room for any mishaps in the day. You risk letting at least one customer down and stranding the driver.
You say it's madness to plan in a reduced rest but this is where a good planner and a good driver have to work together.
If it's a shift driver, then I agree, it can be stupid to plan a full 15 hour shift as holds up happens and then the driver is being rescued which isn't legal if over time !
In the past I've worked for operators where I'd of worked a 15 hour day but then had a minimum of 11 hours rest. The next day I may of only worked a 12/13 hour shift but because of the next day's work, I've been asked to reduce that rest to a 9 hour.
Very rare I'd say no as I've run a large business of my own many years ago so I understand people need to be flexible.
If I ever did say no, they knew i was tired so never an issue.
I did a few years of tramping and 15 hour days and 9 hour rests work well as you're living in a tin box for 5/6 days, you want the hours in.
Shifts and the long days, short rests can be hard work and tiring but that is the haulage industry and it's unlikely to change much in the near future.
At times I wish I'd never come back in to it
I can see that and it makes sense. Perhaps some on here don't word their posts quite as well as you do.
I don't always write well but I was bought up in the industry and understand it well.
I left school and did normal things
but came back in to the industry 16 years ago, I did 10 years of driving in most sectors to gain the experience so to become a TM.I never think, it's "us and them" as I know the difficulties and frustrations that come from driving but they also know they can't pull the wool over my eyes.
I stand up for what I believe in and if that involves shafting the operator to protect a driver, then I do it.
I've not long had a driver who got 6 points for mobile phone use in a truck, I informed the TC but I defended him as the operator was partly to blame. The driver got away with a warning off the TC, no ban which never happens and the operator got a stern warning and yes, I still work for them.
As a TM I'm there to protect my drivers, other road users, the general public and not forgetting the operator.
No one takes priority as they are all equal in my book, I have a conscience and I like to sleep soundly
well said mate, conscience and backbone go hand in hand
Integrity and having a conscience is something I'm proud of mate so my standards are high and it does cause issues in this industry, that's why I do question my sanity at times
the nail that stands out gets hammered first
I can see the point of planning it in if you are stuck but it should still be a question asked of the driver rather than a brick bat. I can see why so many drivers think of TMs as running on an 'us and them' way of doing things after reading some of the attitudes in here though
although using your reduced rest as contingency also makes sense to me too. Perhaps I should read more
I think you put that beautifully. I am very possessive of my drivers and they look after me. As far as I am concernced my job wouldn't exist without them but I admit I am lucky and have a few very good drivers who know what they are doing. I look after 3 clients at the moment in Avon, Wiltshire and Berkshire and they look after me. It's sad probably to say it but I love my job, although it does have it's days!!
I have driven since 2000 so I know what you mean about 'wool and eyes' though
It’s nice to here humanity within this post
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